Talk:Big Smoke - Revision history

https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/Talk:Big_Smoke/history?feed=atom Talk:Big Smoke - Revision history 2026-06-07T20:18:26Z Revision history for this page on the wiki MediaWiki 1.44.2 https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=365322&oldid=prev Gtabot: Robot: Fixing wiki syntax 2012-08-09T16:48:52Z

<p>Robot: Fixing wiki syntax</p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:48, 9 August 2012</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l25">Line 25:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 25:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: ==<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[</del>[http://gta.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&action=edit&section=1 edit<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]</del>] Age and Date of birth==</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: ==[http://gta.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&action=edit&section=1 edit] Age and Date of birth==</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I think that Big Smoke born in 1957-1960, and he is 32-35 in GTA San Andreas</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I think that Big Smoke born in 1957-1960, and he is 32-35 in GTA San Andreas</div></td></tr> </table>

Gtabot https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48748&oldid=prev A-Dust at 14:10, 22 September 2010 2010-09-22T14:10:55Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:10, 22 September 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l6">Line 6:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 6:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I do not agree. Nobody is going to type in "Melvin Harris" every time they want to find some info on him. Big Smoke is what he is referred to in the game, even though we find out what his real name is.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I do not agree. Nobody is going to type in "Melvin Harris" every time they want to find some info on him. Big Smoke is what he is referred to in the game, even though we find out what his real name is.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I believe that people should go by what they are best known as, so all the above pages would be "Big Smoke", "Sweet", "OG Loc" and "Colonel Cortez". For example, [[Kent Paul]] is really called "Paul something", but should be be listed as that? If we found out [[Auntie Poulet]]'s first name, would we put her on "Dorothy Poulet"? Ken is short for Kenneth, but should we have him on "Kenneth Rosenberg"? Obviously not, because we know the person almost exclusively by their nickname.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I believe that people should go by what they are best known as, so all the above pages would be "Big Smoke", "Sweet", "OG Loc" and "Colonel Cortez". For example, [[Kent Paul]] is really called "Paul something", but should be be listed as that? If we found out [[Auntie Poulet]]'s first name, would we put her on "Dorothy Poulet"? Ken is short for Kenneth, but should we have him on "Kenneth Rosenberg"? Obviously not, because we know the person almost exclusively by their nickname.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::This debate could go on. And it should. The GTASA PC manual says: Sean "Sweet" Johnson as well as Jizzy B and Maccer and Kent Paul (also note it says [[Officer Tenpenny]] instead of Frank). Those are probably the names we should use. However, I don't think [[Sweet|Sean "Sweet" Johnson]] is a good article name - it should be one or the other, not both. So we need to make a decision, and write some specific [[Policy]] so that we achieve consistency.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::This debate could go on. And it should. The GTASA PC manual says: Sean "Sweet" Johnson as well as Jizzy B and Maccer and Kent Paul (also note it says [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Frank Tenpenny|</ins>Officer Tenpenny]] instead of Frank). Those are probably the names we should use. However, I don't think [[Sweet|Sean "Sweet" Johnson]] is a good article name - it should be one or the other, not both. So we need to make a decision, and write some specific [[Policy]] so that we achieve consistency.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Either '''All characters should be titled by their full name wherever possible'''; or</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Either '''All characters should be titled by their full name wherever possible'''; or</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::'''Characters should be titled by what they are best known as, even when a relatively-unknown full-name alternative is available'''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::'''Characters should be titled by what they are best known as, even when a relatively-unknown full-name alternative is available'''.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I mean, I bet not many people would know who Melvin Harris is if I asked them. If I said Big Smoke, they would. Same with Sean Johnson or Lance Wilson or Jeffrey Cross or Thomas Vercetti or Juan García Cortez or Mitch Baker (without the "Big").</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I mean, I bet not many people would know who Melvin Harris is if I asked them. If I said Big Smoke, they would. Same with Sean Johnson or Lance Wilson or Jeffrey Cross or Thomas Vercetti or Juan García Cortez or Mitch Baker (without the "Big").</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I vote for [[Sweet]], [[Big Smoke]], [[OG Loc]], [[Ryder]], [[Colonel Cortez]], [[Officer Tenpenny]], [[Officer Pulaski]], [[Kent Paul]], [[Big Mitch Baker]] etc - because then everyone knows instantly who we are talking about, and the full name (if known) is always in bold at the start of the article.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I vote for [[Sweet]], [[Big Smoke]], [[OG Loc]], [[Ryder]], [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Juan Cortez|</ins>Colonel Cortez]], [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Frank Tenpenny|</ins>Officer Tenpenny]], [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Eddie Pulaski|</ins>Officer Pulaski]], [[Kent Paul]], [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Mitch Baker|</ins>Big Mitch Baker]] etc - because then everyone knows instantly who we are talking about, and the full name (if known) is always in bold at the start of the article.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::ps 47 - this is a big decision affecting the naming of articles on the entire wiki, so it needs discussion before you decide that we do it one way or the other. Keep this discussion going - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:16, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::ps 47 - this is a big decision affecting the naming of articles on the entire wiki, so it needs discussion before you decide that we do it one way or the other. Keep this discussion going - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:16, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::Now that I have thought about it, it is a much bigger issue then it looks. We need to come to a decision on this. I have reviewed what [[Xenon]] has wrote, if [[Rockstar]] used [[Big Smoke]] as the official name under all descriptions, manuals, strategy guides, etc., then thats what we have to go for. On the other hand we can opt for accuracy. Both ways there have to be redirects to any name the character has. However we then have to pull a compromise when a character is named "Sean "Sweet" Johnson]], because it will just create more of a mess here. Another idea is to look into a official game strategy guide to see how it is done there and the wiki definetly needs to have a poll on this very important issue; so we can make it a standard and add it into the policy.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::Now that I have thought about it, it is a much bigger issue then it looks. We need to come to a decision on this. I have reviewed what [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">User:Gboyers|</ins>Xenon]] has wrote, if [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Rockstar Games|</ins>Rockstar]] used [[Big Smoke]] as the official name under all descriptions, manuals, strategy guides, etc., then thats what we have to go for. On the other hand we can opt for accuracy. Both ways there have to be redirects to any name the character has. However we then have to pull a compromise when a character is named "Sean "Sweet" Johnson]], because it will just create more of a mess here. Another idea is to look into a official game strategy guide to see how it is done there and the wiki definetly needs to have a poll on this very important issue; so we can make it a standard and add it into the policy.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::[[User:47|47]] 22:30, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::[[User:47|47]] 22:30, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> </table>

A-Dust https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48747&oldid=prev A-Dust at 01:18, 9 September 2010 2010-09-09T01:18:42Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 01:18, 9 September 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l17">Line 17:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 17:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Officially, most of the important characters have full names - eg Melvin Harris. However, that is not a good article title because it isn't intuitive... because nobody knows that name. We have already opted for less-complicated titles such as [[Vehicles in GTA San Andreas]] instead of [[Vehicles in GTA San Andreas|List of vehicles in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]]. Can you guess why? This wiki has to be usable more than technically accurate. We don't play things by the book, because there is no book - we write our own rules. There is no doubt that "Big Smoke" is the more well known name, and it is what he is referred to throughout the game, and it is what he is referred to in the official manual that comes with the game (alongside his real name). There is no real reason why we should not use those more common names.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Officially, most of the important characters have full names - eg Melvin Harris. However, that is not a good article title because it isn't intuitive... because nobody knows that name. We have already opted for less-complicated titles such as [[Vehicles in GTA San Andreas]] instead of [[Vehicles in GTA San Andreas|List of vehicles in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]]. Can you guess why? This wiki has to be usable more than technically accurate. We don't play things by the book, because there is no book - we write our own rules. There is no doubt that "Big Smoke" is the more well known name, and it is what he is referred to throughout the game, and it is what he is referred to in the official manual that comes with the game (alongside his real name). There is no real reason why we should not use those more common names.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Carl Johnson|</ins>CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> </table>

A-Dust https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48746&oldid=prev Gta-mysteries at 11:36, 24 July 2010 2010-07-24T11:36:38Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 11:36, 24 July 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l16">Line 16:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 16:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::[[User:47|47]] 22:30, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::[[User:47|47]] 22:30, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Officially, most of the important characters have full names - eg Melvin Harris. However, that is not a good article title because it isn't intuitive... because nobody knows that name. We have already opted for less-complicated titles such as [[Vehicles in GTA San Andreas]] instead of [[List of vehicles in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]]. Can you guess why? This wiki has to be usable more than technically accurate. We don't play things by the book, because there is no book - we write our own rules. There is no doubt that "Big Smoke" is the more well known name, and it is what he is referred to throughout the game, and it is what he is referred to in the official manual that comes with the game (alongside his real name). There is no real reason why we should not use those more common names.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Officially, most of the important characters have full names - eg Melvin Harris. However, that is not a good article title because it isn't intuitive... because nobody knows that name. We have already opted for less-complicated titles such as [[Vehicles in GTA San Andreas]] instead of [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Vehicles in GTA San Andreas|</ins>List of vehicles in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]]. Can you guess why? This wiki has to be usable more than technically accurate. We don't play things by the book, because there is no book - we write our own rules. There is no doubt that "Big Smoke" is the more well known name, and it is what he is referred to throughout the game, and it is what he is referred to in the official manual that comes with the game (alongside his real name). There is no real reason why we should not use those more common names.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> </table>

Gta-mysteries https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48745&oldid=prev Gta-mysteries at 22:01, 22 July 2010 2010-07-22T22:01:36Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:01, 22 July 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l6">Line 6:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 6:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I do not agree. Nobody is going to type in "Melvin Harris" every time they want to find some info on him. Big Smoke is what he is referred to in the game, even though we find out what his real name is.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I do not agree. Nobody is going to type in "Melvin Harris" every time they want to find some info on him. Big Smoke is what he is referred to in the game, even though we find out what his real name is.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I believe that people should go by what they are best known as, so all the above pages would be "Big Smoke", "Sweet", "OG Loc" and "Colonel Cortez". For example, [[Kent Paul]] is really called "Paul something", but should be be listed as that? If we found out [[Auntie Poulet]]'s first name, would we put her on "Dorothy Poulet"? Ken is short for Kenneth, but should we have him on "Kenneth Rosenberg"? Obviously not, because we know the person almost exclusively by their nickname.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I believe that people should go by what they are best known as, so all the above pages would be "Big Smoke", "Sweet", "OG Loc" and "Colonel Cortez". For example, [[Kent Paul]] is really called "Paul something", but should be be listed as that? If we found out [[Auntie Poulet]]'s first name, would we put her on "Dorothy Poulet"? Ken is short for Kenneth, but should we have him on "Kenneth Rosenberg"? Obviously not, because we know the person almost exclusively by their nickname.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::This debate could go on. And it should. The GTASA PC manual says: Sean "Sweet" Johnson as well as Jizzy B and Maccer and Kent Paul (also note it says [[Officer Tenpenny]] instead of Frank). Those are probably the names we should use. However, I don't think [[Sean "Sweet" Johnson]] is a good article name - it should be one or the other, not both. So we need to make a decision, and write some specific [[Policy]] so that we achieve consistency.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::This debate could go on. And it should. The GTASA PC manual says: Sean "Sweet" Johnson as well as Jizzy B and Maccer and Kent Paul (also note it says [[Officer Tenpenny]] instead of Frank). Those are probably the names we should use. However, I don't think [[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Sweet|</ins>Sean "Sweet" Johnson]] is a good article name - it should be one or the other, not both. So we need to make a decision, and write some specific [[Policy]] so that we achieve consistency.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Either '''All characters should be titled by their full name wherever possible'''; or</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Either '''All characters should be titled by their full name wherever possible'''; or</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::'''Characters should be titled by what they are best known as, even when a relatively-unknown full-name alternative is available'''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::'''Characters should be titled by what they are best known as, even when a relatively-unknown full-name alternative is available'''.</div></td></tr> </table>

Gta-mysteries https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48744&oldid=prev Ambience ed at 15:22, 10 May 2010 2010-05-10T15:22:24Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:22, 10 May 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l25">Line 25:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 25:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==[[http://gta.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&action=edit&section=1 edit]] Age and Date of birth==</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I think that Big Smoke born in 1957-1960, and he is 32-35 in GTA San Andreas</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Ambience ed https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48743&oldid=prev Ambience ed: /* Page Name 2 */ 2010-05-10T15:17:23Z

<p><span class="autocomment">Page Name 2</span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:17, 10 May 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l26">Line 26:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 26:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==Age and Date of Birth==</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:I think that Big Smoke born in 1957-1960 years, and he is 32-35 years old</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr> </table>

Ambience ed https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48742&oldid=prev Ambience ed at 15:16, 10 May 2010 2010-05-10T15:16:22Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:16, 10 May 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Page Name==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Page Name==</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Was wondering whether the page should be moved to either Melvin Harris or Melvin "Big Smoke" Harris. The same would go for [[Ryder]] (to Lance Wilson|Lance "Ryder" Wilson), [[OG Loc]] (Jeffrey Cross|Jeffrey "OG Loc" Cross), [[Sweet]] (to Sean Johnson|Sean "Sweet" Johnson) and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>[[Juan Cortez]] (to Juan Garcia Cortez). Just a suggestion. [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 21:35, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Was wondering whether the page should be moved to either Melvin Harris or Melvin "Big Smoke" Harris. The same would go for [[Ryder]] (to Lance Wilson|Lance "Ryder" Wilson), [[OG Loc]] (Jeffrey Cross|Jeffrey "OG Loc" Cross), [[Sweet]] (to Sean Johnson|Sean "Sweet" Johnson) and [[Juan Cortez]] (to Juan Garcia Cortez). Just a suggestion. [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 21:35, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a wiki by the way, and I think that the pages should be renamed like that to reflect the real characters, but also have redirects of their "nicknames" so new users can easily find pages. [[User:47|47]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a wiki by the way, and I think that the pages should be renamed like that to reflect the real characters, but also have redirects of their "nicknames" so new users can easily find pages. [[User:47|47]]</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l8">Line 8:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 8:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::This debate could go on. And it should. The GTASA PC manual says: Sean "Sweet" Johnson as well as Jizzy B and Maccer and Kent Paul (also note it says [[Officer Tenpenny]] instead of Frank). Those are probably the names we should use. However, I don't think [[Sean "Sweet" Johnson]] is a good article name - it should be one or the other, not both. So we need to make a decision, and write some specific [[Policy]] so that we achieve consistency.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::This debate could go on. And it should. The GTASA PC manual says: Sean "Sweet" Johnson as well as Jizzy B and Maccer and Kent Paul (also note it says [[Officer Tenpenny]] instead of Frank). Those are probably the names we should use. However, I don't think [[Sean "Sweet" Johnson]] is a good article name - it should be one or the other, not both. So we need to make a decision, and write some specific [[Policy]] so that we achieve consistency.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Either '''All characters should be titled by their full name wherever possible'''; or</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Either '''All characters should be titled by their full name wherever possible'''; or</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::'''Characters should be titled by what they are best known as, even when a relatively-unknown full-name alternative is available'''. </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::'''Characters should be titled by what they are best known as, even when a relatively-unknown full-name alternative is available'''.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I mean, I bet not many people would know who Melvin Harris is if I asked them. If I said Big Smoke, they would. Same with Sean Johnson or Lance Wilson or Jeffrey Cross or Thomas Vercetti or Juan García Cortez or Mitch Baker (without the "Big").</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I mean, I bet not many people would know who Melvin Harris is if I asked them. If I said Big Smoke, they would. Same with Sean Johnson or Lance Wilson or Jeffrey Cross or Thomas Vercetti or Juan García Cortez or Mitch Baker (without the "Big").</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I vote for [[Sweet]], [[Big Smoke]], [[OG Loc]], [[Ryder]], [[Colonel Cortez]], [[Officer Tenpenny]], [[Officer Pulaski]], [[Kent Paul]], [[Big Mitch Baker]] etc - because then everyone knows instantly who we are talking about, and the full name (if known) is always in bold at the start of the article.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I vote for [[Sweet]], [[Big Smoke]], [[OG Loc]], [[Ryder]], [[Colonel Cortez]], [[Officer Tenpenny]], [[Officer Pulaski]], [[Kent Paul]], [[Big Mitch Baker]] etc - because then everyone knows instantly who we are talking about, and the full name (if known) is always in bold at the start of the article.</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l24">Line 24:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 24:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Is there a reason that this page has been moved from Melvin Harris to Big Smoke? [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 20:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Is there a reason that this page has been moved from Melvin Harris to Big Smoke? [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 20:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:==Age and Date of Birth==</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:I think that Big Smoke born in 1957-1960 years, and he is 32-35 years old</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Ambience ed https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48741&oldid=prev Eganio at 22:24, 10 June 2008 2008-06-10T22:24:35Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:24, 10 June 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l19">Line 19:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 19:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Page Name 2==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Page Name 2==</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Is there a reason that this page has been moved from Melvin Harris to Big Smoke? [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 20:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Is there a reason that this page has been moved from Melvin Harris to Big Smoke? [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 20:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:This is a general response to all of the above discussion: I am in favor of using the most prominent ''in-game'' designation for characters, and in this case, it seems to me that ''Big Smoke'' is the most prominent name used for this character. In fact, the name ''Melvin Harris'' '''never''' arises in game dialogue, stats, etc., suggesting a naive player would necessarily first look for ''Big Smoke'', and would subsequently be informed by the Wiki article as to his proper name. Isn't that the idea here? '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Eganio https://www.grandtheftwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Big_Smoke&diff=48740&oldid=prev A-Dust at 20:30, 10 June 2008 2008-06-10T20:30:42Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:30, 10 June 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l19">Line 19:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 19:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:I don't think a poll is a very dignified manner of deciding policy. If we ask a hundred people what they would type in to find out that fat guy from GTA SA, I'd put money on that they would all say Big Smoke. If we voted on which one was correct, that is a lot more subjective. His name is Melvin Harris, that is put at the start of his article as it should always be, but should that be the title of his article? That is not what he is referred to. Another thing is with [[CJ]] - he is known as both "Carl" and "CJ" throughout the game, and pretty much everybody would know that CJ stands for Carl Johnson, so that one isn't a problem (we use the technically correct version of the two if both are used a lot).</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How should this be decided then? If we can come to an agreement amongst the staff, then that is absolutely fine. If we can't decide, then we'll ask a wider audience. I would prefer specific comments rather than a straightforward vote (which is easy to fake too). If a big fight breaks out then an administrative decision will have to be made at the top level - [[User:Xenon|Xenon]] ([[User talk:Xenon|?]]) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (BST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==Page Name 2==</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Is there a reason that this page has been moved from Melvin Harris to Big Smoke? [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 20:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

A-Dust