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Community talk:Hub/Oasis: Difference between revisions
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This is just another proof of the breach of trust we have seen from Wikia. They are not keeping the ads away from the content at all, and they are very obtrusive - especially on the new thinner layout. Logged in users see more than one advert, and it does detract significantly from the experience of using the wiki. [[User:Gboyers|Gboyers]] <sup>[[User_talk:Gboyers|talk]]</sup> 22:29, October 3, 2010 (UTC) | This is just another proof of the breach of trust we have seen from Wikia. They are not keeping the ads away from the content at all, and they are very obtrusive - especially on the new thinner layout. Logged in users see more than one advert, and it does detract significantly from the experience of using the wiki. [[User:Gboyers|Gboyers]] <sup>[[User_talk:Gboyers|talk]]</sup> 22:29, October 3, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:''The new skins were designed to keep the ads away from the content, especially for logged in users where there is just one small ad in the top corner."'', what a load of garbage, the ads take up so much space and even takes longer to log in.--<font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="3">[[User:Mizu101|Mizu]]</font><font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="2"><sup> [[User talk:Mizu101|(talk)]]</sup></font> 07:06, 29 August 2011 (BST) | |||
==Community Answers== | ==Community Answers== | ||
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::For this wiki, my question to all admins remains. What do you want to do? Are you willing to stay and look after this wiki, with its current content and focus? Or are you willing to go and edit elsewhere leaving this wiki in peace? Or should I remove all rights now? This wiki will remain for readers like Rodney88, anons and casual editors, past editors, future editors, and anyone else who chooses to remain. They are a community too, and this is their wiki. – [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 23:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC) | ::For this wiki, my question to all admins remains. What do you want to do? Are you willing to stay and look after this wiki, with its current content and focus? Or are you willing to go and edit elsewhere leaving this wiki in peace? Or should I remove all rights now? This wiki will remain for readers like Rodney88, anons and casual editors, past editors, future editors, and anyone else who chooses to remain. They are a community too, and this is their wiki. – [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 23:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC) | ||
==The future direction of this wiki cont.== | ==The future direction of this wiki cont.== | ||
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::As for the idea of changing this site to a modding wiki, I think it made more sense and would make more money for Wikia, although I never thought for one second that it would actually be allowed or take place. I don't see it as apples and oranges, but more as a slim-lined information site dedicated to something more popular than general knowledge. An example being that more people would be interested in discovering downloads to enhance their gaming experience than about a minor character, such as Jayne Kwiatowski, who is mentioned once on a website. We were also planning on linking our site back to this one, so it wasn't as if we were attempting to shut down this wiki. | ::As for the idea of changing this site to a modding wiki, I think it made more sense and would make more money for Wikia, although I never thought for one second that it would actually be allowed or take place. I don't see it as apples and oranges, but more as a slim-lined information site dedicated to something more popular than general knowledge. An example being that more people would be interested in discovering downloads to enhance their gaming experience than about a minor character, such as Jayne Kwiatowski, who is mentioned once on a website. We were also planning on linking our site back to this one, so it wasn't as if we were attempting to shut down this wiki. | ||
::The deletion of content I also disagreed with and it came '''far''' to soon after we left for our own site. I completely agree that it looked like vandalism and can understand the Wikia point of view on this issue. The community should have been asked. Whilst the likelihood of this changing Wikia's mind is extremely small, it would have at least been an indication of the wishes of the community. The decision, from the point of view of changing the website, made sense but it should have been done further down the line, to avoid this situation. | ::The deletion of content I also disagreed with and it came '''far''' to soon after we left for our own site. I completely agree that it looked like vandalism and can understand the Wikia point of view on this issue. The community should have been asked. Whilst the likelihood of this changing Wikia's mind is extremely small, it would have at least been an indication of the wishes of the community. The decision, from the point of view of changing the website, made sense but it should have been done further down the line, to avoid this situation. | ||
::I think that we have more than a leg to stand on, both morally and legally. We did all the work to make this wikia successful. I had been an administrator here from 2006 (before the Grand Theft Wiki joined Wikia) and know more than anyone on here the state that this was in when Grand Theft Wiki moved here. The site was more or less a dead zone and was hardly edited, and the content looked poor. Legally the content of the website is under various different copyrights and the name ''Grand Theft Wiki'' is owned by | ::I think that we have more than a leg to stand on, both morally and legally. We did all the work to make this wikia successful. I had been an administrator here from 2006 (before the Grand Theft Wiki joined Wikia) and know more than anyone on here the state that this was in when Grand Theft Wiki moved here. The site was more or less a dead zone and was hardly edited, and the content looked poor. Legally the content of the website is under various different copyrights and the name ''Grand Theft Wiki'' is owned by Gboyers. Wikia should change the name of this site back to the GTA Wikia and take down the references to Grand Theft Wiki. | ||
::I hope, whatever happens, that the community, both registered and unregistered, continues to discover the information that they desire and more to boot, which is the reason I started editing on both the GTA Wikia and Grand Theft Wiki in 2006. I have no problem with Wikia, other than the fact that they ignore the community (as evidenced by the number of wikis who have left or are thinking about leaving) and their lack of appreciation for our efforts. The least that Wikia could have done was allow us some time to advertise the fact that the community had moved. I tried to maintain this as, after four years and over twenty thousand edits here (and many others across Wikia), I believed it was deserved for not only mine but the communities efforts to improve the wiki, which has made Wikia money. Again, I hope that the community continues to discover the information they desire and hope that these issues can be resolved. I have no interest in getting involved and just want to continue to edit, but I will be sticking with Grand Theft Wiki. [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 13:19, October 19, 2010 (UTC) | ::I hope, whatever happens, that the community, both registered and unregistered, continues to discover the information that they desire and more to boot, which is the reason I started editing on both the GTA Wikia and Grand Theft Wiki in 2006. I have no problem with Wikia, other than the fact that they ignore the community (as evidenced by the number of wikis who have left or are thinking about leaving) and their lack of appreciation for our efforts. The least that Wikia could have done was allow us some time to advertise the fact that the community had moved. I tried to maintain this as, after four years and over twenty thousand edits here (and many others across Wikia), I believed it was deserved for not only mine but the communities efforts to improve the wiki, which has made Wikia money. Again, I hope that the community continues to discover the information they desire and hope that these issues can be resolved. I have no interest in getting involved and just want to continue to edit, but I will be sticking with Grand Theft Wiki. [[User:A-Dust|A-Dust]] 13:19, October 19, 2010 (UTC) | ||
*''And are you really still trying to push the whole 'changing to a modding wiki is totally legit' thing? I mean, seriously? A modding wiki (see GTAModding.com) has a completely different focus and scope so it's really a case of apples and oranges.'' | |||
:Hey, as a prolific modder and the second most contributed editor on that site, I am very offended by you for thinking that changing this wiki into a modding wiki is not legit.--'''[[User:Spaceeinstein|spaceeinstein]]''' 16:50, October 19, 2010 (UTC) | |||
Rodney, since most of your points were accuratley rebbuted by A-Dust, there is no need for me to rebut them. But from your point of view and tone it is clear that you do not speak for the community, but more for wikia. This community is '''not''' wikia, wikia are just our hosts, it is a group of different people not owned or governed by a particular person or corperation. The GTW staff are here to keep peace and act as lead-bys for the rest of the community, as well as to handle the more technical issues on the wiki. In addition to this, I see you are arguing about the legitimacy of having a modding wiki. Although you may not believe this, not everything on a wiki has to be canon. Just look at the many Fan Fiction wikis out there. Modding is a completley legit subject that almost every GTA Fan takes part in. Whole websites, such as www.gtamodding.com are built around modding. It is a prime topic on huge GTA internet forums such as [http://www.gtaforums.com www.gtaforums.com] and [http://www.thegtaplace.com www.thegtaplace.com], both of which are officially recoginsed by Rockstar Games (the creators of GTA). The way you are acting is uncivil and you are starting to flame. Don't worry, we're not just going to ban you (like wikia) for having a different perspective. But continuing acting like this can constittute as '''real''' vandalism, not this site notice thing wikia is crying over. Anyways, the way '''I''' see it, there are three ways things can turn out: | |||
1. This wiki turns into a modding wiki, which is a much more popular subject and would make wikia much more money. This wiki will link to GTW, and in return, we will link GTW to it so there are two great (well, this one would be semi-great, as the new skin will bring it down) sources for everyone to go to and everyone is happy. | |||
2. You cease hosting this wiki. This would not be a good idea however as the coummunity who does not know of the move will not know where we went. | |||
3. We are allowed to display a sitenotice for a few weeks explaining our move and where the community has gone. | |||
The choice is yours and it's incredibly simple. Choice 1 would be the best for both of us. You get even more money from your ad riddled skin and a more popular subject, as well as us linking to you. All you have to do is let us convert this wiki and let you link to us. If you really care about the community, you would let us do this. What you are doing now is simply confusing and deliberatley confusing the community and making them think we are destroying them. | |||
EDIT: Just thought I would add this, here is what mendel (a user on Wiki Simpsons) said: | |||
{{Quote|Sannse has argued on [http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Sannse#My_email_request her talkpage] that keeping the wiki open is ''"for the benefit of any remaining community, and for any future community."'' All of the wikis who are moving are arguing that it is for the benefit of exactly these people to point them to where the experienced editors are who have built a successful wiki, and it's hard to argue against that. (And in fact, she doesn't.) Wikia refuses to redirect wikis, thus "splitting" the community, which leads to duplicated efforts. This is not beneficial to editors.}} | |||
Can you rebut this? | |||
'''''[[User:Chimpso|Chimpso]]''''' ([[User Talk:Chimpso|Talk]]) 07:46, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Do you actually read before commenting or are you just continuously rephrasing your nonsense in the hope of convincing people? I'll try to keep this simple so there's no misunderstanding. No one is questioning the legitimacy of a modding wiki. A modding wiki would be great. An example of a modding wiki can be seen at [http://www.gtamodding.com/ GTAModding.com]. As you can see, content-wise, there is little to no overlap between this wiki and a modding wiki. Check for yourself but there's about 100 articles related to modding here, which accounts for less than 2% of articles. Therefore, there is absolutely no sense in refocusing this wiki into a modding wiki. If you want a modding wiki, start a new one. | |||
:Btw, you might want to stop begging Wikia with the promise of "much more money". You sound like a whiny little child. Although actually, judging from what you've been saying here, that's probably pretty accurate. In which case, you should probably go back to your homework and let the grown ups talk. [[User:Rodney88|Rodney88]] 10:35, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
For your information, I actually am only 14 years old. But this should not and does not effect the seriousness of my comments. Age is no mesure of maturity, sterotyping an age group is like sterotyping a race group; pointless and illogical. | |||
I always read comments. I try to accuratley rebut everything, but your abusive manner and utter disregard for our point of view is making things difficult. Either discuss this civily, like we are, or don't discuss it at all. [http://www.gtamodding.com/ GTAModding.com] focuses only on the more technical aspects of modding and not on idvidual programs and people. The "hundred articles related to modding" on this wiki were never really given much attention or time to develop, we we're planning on expanding them. I am not begging wikia, as they don't really care, I am just stating the obvious. Wikia trys to focus on money, and I am trying to tell them that they can make more money by focusing on modding, which is a much more popular subject. | |||
I am not offended by your comments ( I get it a lot), but I am asking you to please cease them, as It constitutes as flaming. '''''[[User:Chimpso|Chimpso]]''''' ([[User Talk:Chimpso|Talk]]) 10:47, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Personal insults are a great way to solve problems and come to an agreement. Thanks for your useful contribution to this discussion, Rodney, but I'm here to discuss a solution. [http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/user:gboyers Gboyers] <sup>[http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/User_talk:Gboyers talk]</sup> 10:53, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
::The solution is simple: go away and quit moaning. How can you claim ownership over the name ''Grand Theft Wiki''? I mean, come on. It is undoubtedly the wittiest and most intelligent contraction of ''Grand Theft Auto'' and ''Wiki'' I have ever seen but still, not exactly original and you'd have a hard (read: impossible) time arguing trademark infringement. In a similar vein, I don't get to choose which people use the name Rodney. | |||
::As for a sitewide notice, well good luck with that. You chose to copy all the content to an external site, which is fair enough, but you knew all along that Wikia had no obligation to and was highly unlikely to let you advertise the new location. Sincerely, very best of luck with the new site and I hope it works out. But please, stop being so unreasonable about what happens to the remaining community which has decided to stay because of the way '''you''' behaved. [[User:Rodney88|Rodney88]] 12:44, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
Rodney, you are not contributing to this debate in any positive or civil way. Please do not comment again. '''''[[User:Chimpso|Chimpso]]''''' ([[User Talk:Chimpso|Talk]]) 02:45, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
==Solution== | |||
Since it is clear that Wikia are going to run this copy as a competitor to the legitimate Grand Theft Wiki, I have two requests. Firstly, change the site name and logo to something of Wikia's own, such as 'GTA Wikia'. That includes the pagetitle, project namespace etc. Secondly, permit a sitenotice that links to this page or similar, to allow users to know what's going on with their wiki and make their own decision about what to do. With those two reasonable requests fulfilled, my staff will leave this site alone and allow it to forge its own path as Wikia desire. [http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/user:gboyers Gboyers] <sup>[http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/User_talk:Gboyers talk]</sup> 10:52, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Yes, a sitenotice that links to a page explaining the situation, this or another, is OK. I'd ask that it don't link directly to your new wiki, although I'm fine with the link to your wiki being on the explanation page. I also ask that the notice doesn't exclude the option of people staying. One used elsewhere, for example, was "An alternative version of this wiki is being set up, Please see <nowiki>[[the forum page]] for details</nowiki>." I will change the logo as soon as I can come up with something suitable. I'm not happy with changing the pagetitle, because that would have significant impact on this site's SEO and so the chances of it recovering over time. However, I would be prepared to make the logo show something other than "Grand Theft Wiki" (although I have a big aversion to anything like Grand Theftapedia... soooooo over-done ;) | |||
:Does that work? -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]] 21:20, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
That sounds good to me. A sitenotice that links to [[Grand Theft Wiki:Community Portal/Oasis]] explaining the 'split' and offering users their own choice as to where they edit. As for the pagetitle, I just meant to reflect the logo and site name not being the words "Grand Theft Wiki" in that order (to avoid confusion and SEO penalties). What about the project namespace? I agree with avoiding Grand Theftapedia - unfortunately there are too many in the new generation who think "a wiki" means Wikipedia only and haven't heard of an encyclopaedia! I'm still disappointed Wikia is choosing to compete rather than work in partnership with the departed community, but I'm glad we can work this out civilly. [http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/user:gboyers Gboyers] <sup>[http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/User_talk:Gboyers talk]</sup> 22:16, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I think that's the rub, neither of us want to lose the SEO from the existing title. Perhaps your community can come up with something innovative for the new location? -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 23:34, October 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Our site still wishes to keep the Grand Theft Wiki name, no argument there. We will not give up a name we've used for years. In addition to this, we are not going to purchase another domain. If the domain name is www.grandtheftwiki.com, you can't expect us to call the wiki something else. That would make no sense. The domain name of this wiki; gta, can have many names. '''''[[User:Chimpso|Chimpso]]''''' ([[User Talk:Chimpso|Talk]]) 04:17, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
It's not for reasons of SEO that we want the name, it's our identity - the name I was using for the wiki long before Wikia. If you wanted good SEO, go for "GTA Wiki" which is what more people search for. I'm afraid I can't just give up the identity of our site to this copy, just because Wikia wants to make more money from it. [http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/user:gboyers Gboyers] <sup>[http://www.grandtheftwiki.com/User_talk:Gboyers talk]</sup> 08:48, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:It's about recovery and rebuilding the community rather than eyes on ads... but either way, I think your solution of GTA Wiki will work :) | |||
:So I should be able to re-do the logo over the weekend, and will also make any adjustments needed to the sitename and so on. Feel free to make on-wiki changes needed to reflect the change, but if you don't, I'll do them as soon as I can. -- [[User:Sannse|Sannse]]<staff /> <small>([[w:c:community:Forum:Community_Central_Forum|help forum]] | [[w:c:community:Blog:Wikia_Staff_Blog |blog]])</small> 05:54, October 22, 2010 (UTC) | |||
== MrLanceVanceDance's responses to the questions. == | |||
1.What do you think of the Oasis skin? | |||
I do not like the new Oasis skin because it is obstructive, takes longer to load, gives less content space, gives me an eyeache and doesn't even look good. | |||
2.Do you think GTW should leave Wikia? | |||
Yes. I think Grand Theft Wiki should move from Wikia because Wikia puts money ahead of its users and it shows they do not like nor respect us. | |||
3.If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com? | |||
Of course i will go with Grand Theft Wiki rather than Wikia, as Grand Theft Wiki actually cares about their users and doesn't cram loads of ads into their site. Also, it is faster loading and looks better.--[[User:MrLanceVanceDance|MrLanceVanceDance]] 07:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Agreed.--<font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="3">[[User:Mizu101|Mizu]]</font><font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="2"><sup> [[User talk:Mizu101|(talk)]]</sup></font> 08:22, 3 August 2011 (BST) | |||
==My responses.== | |||
1.The new Oasis skin doesn't bother me, it's mainly the staff memebers. | |||
2.I agree that the Grand Theft Wiki should moved, the fact wikia is too stubborn, | |||
3.I will go ahead and stayed with this site rather than Wikia.--<font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="3">[[User:Mizu101|Mizu]]</font><font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="2"><sup> [[User talk:Mizu101|(talk)]]</sup></font> 13:22, 29 July 2011 (BST) | |||
:On second thought the the new skin is rather annoying, there are still tons of adds being shown, obviously the wikia staff members are too blinded to see the problem, I'm very glad I left there.--<font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="3">[[User:Mizu101|Mizu]]</font><font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="2"><sup> [[User talk:Mizu101|(talk)]]</sup></font> 17:54, 30 July 2011 (BST) | |||
::One thing to note is that logged-in members see fewer adverts, and admins see almost none! So there are even more adverts than you see! This is Wikia showing they don't care about regular users, they just want money. On GTW, everyone sees the same 2 adverts, no favouritism. [[User:Gboyers|gboyers]] <sup>[[User_talk:Gboyers|talk]]</sup> 19:37, 30 July 2011 (BST) | |||
:::Of course Wikia doesn't care about the regular users, tons of bullies are at that site and Wikia won't do a single thing,--<font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="3">[[User:Mizu101|Mizu]]</font><font face="Papyrus" color="blue" size="2"><sup> [[User talk:Mizu101|(talk)]]</sup></font> 20:54, 30 July 2011 (BST) | |||